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List of the 8 Local Homosexualists who were challenged

to Debate Dr. Lively – and their responses

(All 8 DECLINED to debate Dr. Lively):


KEY: Commentary by TCFamily.org Founder Bill Wiesner in [brackets]









Vic McCarty



WMKT 1270 am “The Talk Station” Radio Host




Vic's boss at his radio station said that he could not moderate a debate where another radio station (Randy Bishop's) was broadcasting. 


Vic did have both Scott Lively and Bill Wiesner on his 1270 am WMKT "The Talk Station" Radio Show several days before the scheduled debate. 


TCFamily.org Commentary inside brackets:


[Vic said that he wasn’t aware of any Sexual Orientation Regulations (SORs) being used to discriminate against Pro-Traditional Family Citizens –

but here’s a list of:


120 Examples of SORs being used as SWORDS to come discriminate against Pro-Traditional Family Citizens.


Vic has had over 100 interviews with 5 or more different homosexualist guests in the last 18 months; in the same time he has had 4 interviews that I know of with Pro-Traditional Family guests -- Dr. Scott Lively, Gary Glenn, and Bill Wiesner. 



96% Homosexualist Guests to

  4% Pro-Traditional Family Guests.]





Jim Carruthers



City Commissioner in Traverse City who introduced the vote that successfully added “sexual orientation and gender identity” as a protected status in City Government.





Email response:  "Thanks for the info.  I am not available to attend.  Good luck, Jim." 


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  Openly homosexual City Commissioner Carruthers introduced the "Sexual Orientation Regulations" (SORs) that were recently passed in Traverse City.


It is unfortunate that he was unable to debate Dr. Lively to show all Traverse City residents the superiority of Traverse City's SORs over the 1st Amendment rights of individual Americans.]


Again, the SORs that Commissioner Carruthers spearheaded in Traverse City are being used all across America to DISCRIMINATE AGAINST Americans who believe in the 5000 year old natural law, common sense, traditional view of marriage as opposed to the view being MARKETED so effectively to the Kindergarteners on up by powerful homosexualists in just the last 50 years.


And whether or not Commissioner Carruthers and the other 7 Homosexualists  are sincere in their beliefs is not important; what IS important is how this present MARKETING will affect the most vulnerable amongst us -- the TCAPS KINDERGARTENERS.


"THE MARKETING OF EVIL: How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised As Freedom" by David Kupelian explains the tactics employed in this marketing process.  Chapter One is entitled: "Marketing Blitz: Selling 'Gay Rights' to America." 


You can read: Reviews, Table of Contents, Introduction, and half of the 1st Chapter ("Marketing Blitz: Selling 'Gay Rights' to America") -- and see the grave harm caused by this MARKETING -- by following these TWO steps:

  1. FIRST click on this link: THE MARKETING OF EVIL -- HERE

  2. SECOND click on the picture of the "MARKETING OF EVIL" book to read the Introduction, etc.


120 Examples of SORs being used as SWORDS to come discriminate against Pro-Traditional Family Citizens.]





M'Lynn Hartwell



TCEquality.org webmaster and local self-identified lesbian activist




Phone Conversation: She says she sees no debate here, and wishes me well.


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  M’Lynn is a self-identified lesbian who helped lead the fight to pass SORs in both City Government and our local TCAPS School District. 


M’Lynn is also the webmaster for the TCEquality website. 


Last year TCEquality was encouraging the Traverse City Community (including any Kindergarten – 12th grade students who might come to the TCEquality website) to “Come Out” as a homosexual if they felt led to on the October “Coming Out Day.”]







Ben Gohs



News Editor at the Boyne City Gazette; weekly guest on the Vic McCarty Radio Show




Phone: He said he was too busy to debate Dr. Lively, honestly, and that he is writing his book about his belief in atheism.


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  Ben made the following statements during a 12/5/2011 interview with Vic McCarty, in reference to a Westboro Baptist Church planned protest in Boyne City, MI (NOTE: TCFamily also disagrees with much of what the Westboro Baptist Church shares.)


Ben Gohs quotes:

Well, as a seasoned and well trained journalist, there is no, you don’t let yourself be manipulated.  …  Well we’re not a bunch of morons working in the newspaper.  We know what we’re doing.  We understand what needs to be covered; what makes a news story.  … And it’s not our job to be any ones PR firm: not the family of the victim, or the family of the aggressor. And it’s also not our job to pass judgment, except on the editorial page.  …  People have a right to protest – that is newsworthy. I don’t care if you’re in New York City, or in Boyne City, you know, I don’t … my opinion on the matter doesn’t matter either way.  …  The only cure for bad speech, the only – listen to me kiddiesthe only cure for bad speech is more speech, good speech.  That’s what we need to be focusing on.  … 


One of the big things we need to focus on here is the fact that, as Mr. Baird touched on, this isn’t just a matter of a group of a hundred or a hundred and fifty people who go out, and they do these things that are what most people consider VILE. While most people won’t go join them, and most people will say publicly, ‘Oh, man, that’s terrible’, we still have most of the states in the union that are … where the most of the voters say that gays can’t even have the right to marry one another, in a civil service.  So to sit here and say that this is just, you know, POINT THE FINGER OF SHAME, “Oh these are the worst …” There are degrees of this, and I think he’s right [Greg Baird is right].  We need to have these conversations, because they’re not the only SCOUNDRELS. They are the extremists. You know, it’s like we talk about Islam: they’re the extremists. Well, as you know, as Dan Dennett [one of the “new atheists”] says: the MODERATEs of a school of thought allow the extremists – they create the framework that allow the extremists to exist.”


Greg Baird (who was also on the show, responded to Mr. Gohs comments):  “Exactly.”


[Back to TCFamily CommentaryMr. Gohs promotes the normalization of homosexual behavior in our community (including to any Kindergarten – 12th grade TCAPS students who might be listening) with some comments nearly every week on the Vic McCarty Show.


Homosexual behavior is DANGEROUS and should not be promoted --  see MANY examples of just how dangerous it is here: 




It’s too bad that even though Pastor Lively has greatly helped to stop the advancement of homosexual behavior (which is dangerous) to especially the youth in both Uganda and Russia, that Mr. Gohs obviously didn’t see his invitation to debate Dr. Lively as a newsworthy item – especially when he stated that: “… the only cure for bad speech (listen to me kiddies) is the good speech…” (like his) promoting homosexuality. 


And Mr. Gohs could have also restated how vile all the moderate scoundrels are who make up the majorities of the 31 states who have passed legislation protecting 1 man-1 woman marriage. 


And what better way for Mr. Gohs to defend the topic of his new book: “The Moral Superiority of Atheism: A Guide to Un-Apologetics”:  Mr. Gohs, an atheist, debating Pastor Lively, a Christian, who was a former agnostic alcoholic and drug addict who lived on the streets for 15 years, whose alcoholism and drug addiction were cured in an instant when he repented and put his faith in Jesus Christ.


But even though Mr. Gohs speaks boldly on the Vic McCarty Show promoting homosexual behavior, I guess it would just not be a newsworthy story for him to debate Pastor Lively.]






Greg Baird



National Lecturer on LGBT issues, Diversity, Acceptance, Community, Bullying and Hate Crimes to Colleges & Universities





Phone: Said he's not about debates; he's about inclusion.


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  Greg promotes homosexuality and SORs to impressionable students in colleges in the Midwest region of the United States. 


He is also a guest on the Vic McCarty show nearly every month promoting homosexual behavior.


Again, it is unfortunate that he was unable to debate Dr. Lively to show all Traverse City residents the superiority of Traverse City's SORs over the 1st Amendment rights of individual Americans.]





Theresa Gardner



Traverse City Human Rights Commission (HRC) Chairperson



[No response]


Phone: said she'd look at the info (that I emailed to her), but she never replied.


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  Our local HRC 1st recommended to the City of Traverse City that they pass SORs. 


Then given the opportunity to show the entire Traverse City Community the superiority of promoting SORs over The First Amendment, the HRC Chairperson failed to step up and show the superiority of the SORs.]





Dr. David Pilgrim



Vice President for Diversity and Inclusion at Ferris State University




Phone: Dr. Pilgrim hung up on me after 26 seconds; never replied to my follow-up email.


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  Dr. Pilgrim and Bill Wiesner had an INFORMAL DEBATE concerning his promotion of the normalization of homosexuality during his February 2013 “THEM: Images of Separation” presentation at the Dennos Museum in Traverse City, MI. 


You can watch the YouTube of that discussion here:




You can also


Read TCFamily.org's response to Dr. Pilgrim's comments


about our YouTube informal debate.


Dr. Pilgrim strongly stated that my discussion with him on the topic of homosexuality “… WAS NO DEBATE.” 


However, during his presentation at the Dennos Museum, he stated that: “… I believe the University is a marketplace of IDEAS, and you have to bring ALL of them.  You know, but the difference is, is WHEN HE GETS DONE TALKING, I GET A TURN, you know, or someone else gets a turn …” 


Dr. Pilgrim, what better way then to model for the Ferris State University students how to enter the marketplace of ideas and “take your turn” by debating the topic of homosexual behavior – which you were normalizing in your presentation at the Dennos Museum in Traverse City – with Dr. and Pastor Scott Lively, on the topic of: “The First Amendment vs. Sexual Orientation Regulations: Which Should Prevail?” 


But again, when I presented Dr. Pilgrim with that opportunity by phone, he hung up on me after only 26 seconds of conversation. 


TCFamily.org's follow-up email request

was never answered.]





Jay Kaplan



ACLU of Michigan LGBT Project staff attorney




Phone: Mr. Kaplan was friendly and spoke with me for about 10 minutes. He said that it was a long drive from the Detroit area to Traverse City, and that he could not overextend himself.  He hung up when he realized that I was definitely on the other side and challenged him with my position being concerned about the promotion of homosexuality to the K-12 children.


[TCFamily.org Commentary:  Mr. Kaplan was one of the Panelists at the Traverse City 2009 “NMC Gay & Lesbian Forum,” where he stated strongly the need to pass SORs in both in our local community and in the entire State of Michigan. 


What better way to promote the superiority of SORs than by debating Dr. Lively on this topic – that is if you really believed you could prove that the SORs would actually be good for the Traverse City and Michigan communities, including the KINDERGARTEN – 12th grade TCAPS students.]




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